The Competitive Edge

Join us on "The Competitive Edge," a podcast where Tobias (Toby) Schwab, a seasoned Human Resource specialist, dives into the complexities of the job market. Toby brings a unique perspective to the conversation, having recently transitioned to his current role through the processes he explores. He shares invaluable insights on differentiating oneself in a crowded field, focusing on enhancing sales and networking skills to stand out. With host AJ Marschke, Toby discusses strategic tactics that can give job seekers a decisive advantage in this competitive landscape. Tune in for an enlightening discussion that promises to arm you with the tools to navigate your career trajectory successfully.

Transcript

What happens when someone in human resources is looking for a job in H.R. and the tables are turned and you go from being in the interviewer to the interviewee.


With me is Tony Schwab, who was recently looking for an opportunity right in human resources. And you found that opportunity and we had a conversation about why you're looking for that opportunity, what that process is like on a number of different levels. And I want to peel back the onion, but the conversation started with how sales skills apply to finding a job and how these ups and downs of looking for a job apply the same to anything.


Whether you're self-employed, looking for clients, or whether you're looking for a job or if you're sales looking for prospects. So first, tell me what you did a little bit about yourself and your background in h.r.


Yeah. I've been in the industry for 20 plus years. You know, people operations around recruiting human resources, you know, just the general people industry. So i started out military recruiting about ten years in health care, ten more years in it. And now I'm back to back to health here again with my new opportunity. So that, you know, did that my entire career.

00:01:11:01 - 00:01:14:04
Speaker 2
Looking for opportunities just always doing edge are.


Always doing yeah third party staffing in recruiting and then transferring over to h.R within like the last ten years.


So I did that in the military.


Yeah, I did marine military recruiting for the marine corps. OCS got into the industry. I was in a temporary active duty, and the gunnery sergeant that I was working for referred me to a former executive officer that that had been in charge of the recruiting depot in Pittsburgh. And I joined, you know, he had started a commercial company through a leadership development program.


This organization that had done to to recruit prior military officers. And so interviewed with him, you know, early stage for his professional career and was with the company for ten years. And he was a major mentor for me throughout the beginning stages of my career.


That's interesting. Now, when you joined the military, did you did you have aspirations of going into H.R.? How did H.R. become a thing for, you.


Know, you know, it was something that temporary recruiting duty, The Marine Corps, you know, does a lot of really dedicated training. And they actually use selling seals. You know, something that we talk about, the SAS professional selling skills was a methodology that they used and talking about, you know, sales being communication, it got me thinking about things that I had been doing personally where I was like, you know, a good communicator and, you know, working through, you know, the recruiting duty with the Marine Corps, getting connected with this job, it became something that really just evolved my career.


It was one of those finding, you know, something that you're good at. And I was you know, ironically, you run into this a lot of the recruiting in the industry. I was a biology major, you know, talked to the business, you know, have that in their background. And it's just kind of an irony. But, yeah, just, you know, stumbled upon being good at that.


you know, the recruiting division that I was with was very successful. I found a passion for it and really enjoyed the early stage of my career. And then once you develop that experience, you start looking into other opportunities that you might have. So, you know, evolving into human resources became a greater interest, really getting into the details of compliance, culture, the employee experience.


Those were things that really started to intrigued me, like from a, you know, being a coaching aspect and really having an influence in a seat at the table to guide a business started realizing that, you know, people make up every single company, whether it's manufacturing organization or services company, whatever it may be, and really having that influence and contribution to the company to help with the people and driving the organization was something that really became a passion for me.


I never thought of it as a as a coaching thing, But yeah, you are you really setting the tone for the culture and you're you're working with people, helping people get along, which is what H.R. is all about. Let's go back to the You find yourself in a position looking for an opportunity in h.r. So did you have any insight?


Did you use any insight? Being someone who recruited and hired, did it help you in this process? Being having been on the other side of the table?


Yeah, I think it did. you know, it's always tough with this.


Yeah, well, you know.


This, but. But I definitely, you know, I think that those those things help. But the emotional state that you go through when you're a job seeker is the piece that you don't think about. You know, or don't you know when you really feel that, that you know, the circumstances that you go through as you're looking, the emotional rollercoaster that you go through in your job.

he aspect that, you know, becomes a little bit more personal when you're on the other side. Yeah, you know, you understand that and you empathize with people as they're going through the job search. But some of those things you know, become a little bit more real when you're going, you know, when you're going through the search yourself.

00:05:08:08 - 00:05:21:04
Speaker 2
So is it fair to say that because of this process, it maybe helped you a little bit, maybe you matured in your process, now having a little more recent insight as opposed to having been in h.r. For so long, not having touch says out of it.

00:05:21:10 - 00:05:38:15
Speaker 3
Yeah, i think so. You know, i mean, i always had a passion for empathizing with the job seeker and stuff and so, you know, the the amount of experience that I had, I was really prided myself on, on you know, thinking about the other side. But once you're in it, you know, it definitely, you know, gives you a different perspective.

00:05:38:15 - 00:06:02:23
Speaker 3
So I think it's helped for sure. Changed, you know, a few thoughts. I mean, everything that you go through is a new learning experience. Every experience helps enhance. And I do really want to use, you know, the experience that I had recently with this situation to help jobseekers and, you know, and and create a good candidate experience, a good employee, you know, like I said, candidate and employee experience through the whole process that I went through.

00:06:03:01 - 00:06:24:01
Speaker 2
So when you when you started in got you see you left the you left the Marines as a recruiter and you got into the job you previously had and that opportunity, how have things changed from when you looked for that job to looking for a job now? What avenues do you have? It's a very different because I know when you look back to when I was first looking for a job, there is nothing like that now.

00:06:24:01 - 00:06:32:23
Speaker 2
I mean, there was no indeed no monster, nothing. There was like you write, you get a resumé typed out and you mail it. So how is it different now?

00:06:33:01 - 00:06:49:05
Speaker 3
I mean, it's just a world of difference. Everything that we've seen evolve in the technical world has impacted everything that we do, you know, and in this experience, you know this process as well. I mean, I can remember early stage career and, you know, you have the people, you know, would especially like different things that we did in business.

00:06:49:05 - 00:07:07:02
Speaker 3
There was like faxes. You could fax a resume and hope that somebody picked it off the fax machine and that would be a differentiator. I mean, little things like that. So every the commonality is always trying to set yourself apart or to put a spotlight on your candidacy or your resume or your experience so that part of it stay the same.

00:07:07:02 - 00:07:17:08
Speaker 3
But the amount of tools and stuff that we have available I think has drastically evolved. I mean, you know, like you said, all the different job boards, you know, linked in and of itself being just, you know, such a big

00:07:17:08 - 00:07:18:22
Speaker 3
component to the whole process.

00:07:19:04 - 00:07:35:22
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, tell me there was one that you said you stumbled on. There was an opportunity reset. Well, to give it a shot, was it like a Craigslist or something? You said you found something so ambiguous. It wasn't in the mainstream, but it turned out to be something more because they were trying to be discreet about putting the word out there that they're looking for somebody.

00:07:36:00 - 00:08:01:02
Speaker 3
Yeah. You know, I think that looking at the content of the job is important in diversifying the search and looking at, you know, a lot of different job boards. I think it was just one that, you know, that I might not have considered going to as a primary. And I've, you know, found that found opportunity through that. So definitely, I think, you know, you can easily become, habitual in going to the same systems.

00:08:01:06 - 00:08:17:04
Speaker 3
Yeah. And trying to diversify that. It was the takeaway that I got. There's, you never know, you know, sometimes it could if you're looking at the content and the job and it seems to be a good fit, I think it's, you know, good to explore different opportunities and that, you know, something like that could come up.

00:08:17:06 - 00:08:43:15
Speaker 2
Is it is it fair to say that when you're looking at this from a sales point of view and you look at trying to get a job at a very large company will be just like trying to prospect a very large company. Sometimes you want to find someone you know because maybe that familiarity helps you. But now that there are so many, it's an almost a numbers game or that's a data game where your resume is analyzed without a person looking at it in a lot of cases.

00:08:43:17 - 00:08:59:21
Speaker 2
And that's not something I was ever up against. When I sent resumes out, people read them and there was a cover that they read. But the process is very different. So do you see a big distinction between maybe if I want to go to a large company with a lot of employees, is that a a different rat race?

00:08:59:21 - 00:09:08:07
Speaker 2
Because now because they have so many people looking to get a job there, you're just a number. How do you beat that data game, if possible, or can't you? Because such a big company.

00:09:08:09 - 00:09:25:02
Speaker 3
The numbers, you know, is it is a challenge. I mean, even looking at remote opportunities, if you think about it, you used to be competing in your local market for a job that you had to drive. Yeah. Now from a remote perspective, you could be competing globally, right? Or at least nationally, you know, at a minimum, you know, for the most part.

00:09:25:02 - 00:09:44:23
Speaker 3
But that's a big impact. You know, I think that, you know, having any type of differentiator that you can find, you know, when you a lot of times recruiters will ironically, I've seen this trend recently where they will notify you that they are the recruiter responsible and you can connect with them. You can try to attempt to message them.

00:09:45:01 - 00:10:10:00
Speaker 3
You know, a lot of maybe that's if you're applying directly within a company's job portal, but then if you're applying the job boards, there's instant messaging, you know, options, meaning like a messaging, you know, tool that you can submit to the recruiter. And not everybody might be doing that. And so, you know that that recruiter or that hiring manager might see a message and it sparks an attention to your resume.

00:10:10:00 - 00:10:28:23
Speaker 3
The next thing you know, they're clicking on your resume. They're looking at your profile in more detail as opposed to people that are taking those steps. I think the interesting thing is some people might, you know, maybe think everybody's doing that, but in reality, there's a there's a high probability that they're not, at which point you could differentiate, you know, your profile.

00:10:29:01 - 00:10:51:13
Speaker 2
Yeah, it sounds a lot like, again, going back to the sales process, if I were in sales, I know that my best leads are probably coming from someone I know and I have an end somehow and that the least probable is probably a cold or cold outreach. So I would think that I'm looking for a new opportunity. My best bet is to go to my first network.

00:10:51:13 - 00:11:11:00
Speaker 2
When you get a job at a certain company, say you're a financial planner, first thing they have you do is call everyone you know for that reason. Now, when you start looking for this process, you did something on LinkedIn that was unique because you wanted to reach out to your network and leverage your network. And did you do that and tell me about that process and did it help?

00:11:11:02 - 00:11:38:01
Speaker 3
Yeah, you know, I'm very thankful for the years of connections. And, you know, as we know, time goes on. You can keep in touch with everybody. So sometimes it's relationships are a little bit more dormant than you would want them to be. And, you know, I threw a message out just being a little, you know, humble and saying that I was in the process of a transition and I appreciated any support that people might be able to offer, whether that be just, you know, communication, networking opportunities.

00:11:38:03 - 00:12:02:06
Speaker 3
Didn't really expect it to, you know, necessarily be, you know, an actual job offer or anything like that. But any any amount of support that that I could do to just refresh my network and reach out to people that I had these valued relationships with. So, you know, just drafted a little note and put it out there. And, you know, the response was was humbling to say the least, of people that reached out and forwarded on, you know, colleagues and other people.

00:12:02:06 - 00:12:24:00
Speaker 3
And, you know, not only the reactions that I received to the direct post, but also the impression that it had in my profile on LinkedIn was really once again, you know, super humbling and very beneficial as I continue to push forward in the search. It was a big springboard of activity for me. And I don't know, sometimes it feels like one thing leads to another.

00:12:24:00 - 00:12:32:03
Speaker 3
You know, a lot of interviews, it occurred after that, and I felt like the cadence of responses kind of picked up. It may be the algorithm that.

00:12:32:05 - 00:12:33:11
Speaker 2
Right? Yeah.

00:12:33:13 - 00:12:55:06
Speaker 3
Thrown your information out there. But I think those impressions of, you know, which correspond to the amount of times that that post was viewed or opened, you know, was it was significant to, you know, showing the activity and and some things that that helped me in the search for sure. So I think we have these relationships we have these tools for a reason and using them can really be beneficial.

00:12:55:07 - 00:13:15:06
Speaker 2
So did you how did you feel when you wanted when you first made that post? Because a lot of people would think that's pretty it's revealing too much. It makes me too vulnerable because it's it's it's almost like you're asking for help. But when you actually had the courage to do it, what happened with did you have any reservations about initially doing it?

00:13:15:07 - 00:13:34:07
Speaker 3
Yeah, for sure. You know, it's an emotional experience to be seeking employment and, you know, putting yourself out there with a message like that. But I had faith that, you know, it was the network that I knew. And I thought it's, you know, it just kind of it was going to prove to be beneficial. And, you know, it did it rejuvenated relationships that were dormant.

00:13:34:09 - 00:13:46:11
Speaker 3
Got me in touch with people. But you definitely have to you know, it was a it was a it was an emotional thought there and just vulnerability. All right. But I think you got to take a chance to get one.

00:13:46:13 - 00:13:47:05
Speaker 2
Right. Right.

00:13:47:08 - 00:14:13:07
Speaker 3
As we talk about the correspondence to sales, it's just doing things with good intent, reaching out. I knew that there was a support network out there for me and it was really helpful, not only in the short term, but I really think in the long term when, like I said, I keep mentioning the relationships that were reactivated and connections we made and and then, you know, finding an opportunity and posting out that you're thankful to have, you know, received a job.

00:14:13:08 - 00:14:16:08
Speaker 3
I mean, people are it was equally supportive.

00:14:16:10 - 00:14:17:01
Speaker 2
At the NDA.

00:14:17:04 - 00:14:35:19
Speaker 3
As it was afterwards. So, you know, it's just it's encouraging to know that people are out there to help and it's rejuvenating to let you know that you can help people as well, you know, when they're reaching out, you know, for support and assistance. And it's nice to see that that system being used for, you know, for those types of purposes.

00:14:35:19 - 00:14:58:10
Speaker 3
I think that, you know, the amount of networking and support that we have at our fingertips, a lot of times you hear about the negatives of different tools or computers and yeah, the personal relationships. And I think it's the opposite if you foster, you know, the personal relationship in addition to the technology that's out there to help you, you know, stay connected with people, it can be a really beneficial circumstance.

00:14:58:10 - 00:15:20:03
Speaker 2
Now, when you when you did that initial outreach, do you think are you going to change the way you maintain personal relationships now? I mean, we talked about how maybe I shouldn't let people get so far away next time that maybe while I'm at this opportunity now, they're working in another position that I should do something to regularly keep in touch with people.

00:15:20:03 - 00:15:29:08
Speaker 2
Just like if you're in sales and you want repeat work, you want to kind of touch your network, ping them a little bit more than you used to. Does that that come to that?

00:15:29:10 - 00:15:50:18
Speaker 3
Yeah, You know, I mean, that was the thought, just like it sounds kind of funny, but even just personally, it lets, you know, just keeping in touch with people. I think that once again, with technology, sometimes we devalue, it's just a text. Sometimes it's nice to get a text or a message from a former colleague. Hey, I haven't talked to, you know, in quite a long time and it's really nice, you know, to be able to do that.

00:15:50:18 - 00:16:09:14
Speaker 3
You know, when you're in a state where it's where you're not looking, you, you know, not that there's any intent behind the messaging that I'm just saying in general, when you come across a profile and send out a message to somebody, I think that we need to understand the person on the other side of that message may really value hearing from you that you thought about them and you let them know that.

00:16:09:16 - 00:16:16:22
Speaker 3
And I think the more we can, you know, try to implement those best practices in our life professionally and personally, I think there's a lot of benefit to that.

00:16:17:03 - 00:16:34:20
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think now that we have all these social media platforms just staying in touch with people and responding to something they post or just, you know, whether it's on Facebook or LinkedIn or whatever, just using that leverage to kind of like, I'm still here, we're still talking, having a engaging in a conversation.

00:16:35:06 - 00:16:37:08
Speaker 4
One of those things that if you if you think it,

00:16:37:08 - 00:16:56:04
Speaker 3
you should just type it. All right. You know, you might be reading content, you're busy. It's tough to always reply and you can't do it all the time. But I think that if you find that moment when that thought is there to send out that you know that message or whatever, like you said it, sometimes it's as easy as a reaction to that post is is beneficial.

00:16:56:05 - 00:17:14:03
Speaker 3
It could be helping their business. You know, you don't realize if it is something they're an event or promoting or a business update or success. You know, those those likes we know turn into impressions or those, you know, reactions turn into impressions. And as we've said, it's beneficial for me to help. So kind of returning that favor is helpful.

00:17:14:05 - 00:17:29:02
Speaker 3
Typing a quick message is even better, I think, because it gets all right, more of a response. And you're really helping for all intents purposes, you're supporting their business. And I think that's a nice gesture for us to do when you can find the time amongst our right.

00:17:29:04 - 00:17:49:12
Speaker 2
That's the tough part, because you want to you want to when you've got a position and you feel like you're locked in, your first impression isn't to keep in touch with people other than what your agenda is for your job. But then you may want to take ten, 15% of your time and say, okay, let's do some networking and refresh some relationships and use that as part of what I do every day.

00:17:49:18 - 00:18:06:18
Speaker 2
Just a little bit tagged, even though it has nothing to do with my job right now, nothing to do with anything I need right now. But just to thank someone, congratulate someone, say hello to someone. I heard about this. I heard about that just those constant little trips help sales people and it helps you find a job.

00:18:06:20 - 00:18:30:01
Speaker 3
Yeah. You know. BLOCK In your day early in the day, maybe doing it over lunch or at the end of the day and being intentional about it, not just writing the content. You know, this content is out there. It's a network, somebody that we might be connected to from for a reason and from our past. So, you know, throwing out those gestures, I think it's really kind of the new, I guess you could call it modern way to support people and businesses.

00:18:30:01 - 00:18:35:14
Speaker 3
And I think that it is sometimes overlooked how exponential that type of support can be.

00:18:35:14 - 00:18:55:16
Speaker 2
when you're in this last position. Again, relating this to sales, I posted something on LinkedIn about this. I posted a poll and I'm always talking about how, you know, there's the there's a high percentage way of getting a sale or getting getting a connection and the low percentage away. And we know that cold is out.

00:18:55:16 - 00:19:18:09
Speaker 2
It's not what you know, it's who you know. And I said and I posted I got a bit of a mixed review, but a lot of people seem to favor it. When I ask the question, is it helpful to know someone in a business somewhere as opposed to someone who doesn't know someone? Do you have any advantage? Like if I was looking for a job where you worked now, we weren't as close as where we work out in the mornings.

00:19:18:09 - 00:19:22:18
Speaker 2
We see each other almost every day. But if we weren't that close, we're friends and had a connection.

00:19:22:18 - 00:19:30:02
Speaker 2
and we had and we had a personal relationship to a certain degree. Would that give me an advantage?

00:19:30:04 - 00:19:39:22
Speaker 3
You know, I think that it you know, it does. I think the networking, naturally, organizations do have to go through their normal vetting process and requirements around the rules and.

00:19:40:03 - 00:19:40:21
Speaker 1
All right.

00:19:40:23 - 00:20:05:07
Speaker 3
You know, having a short list referral and networking and having that once again, differentiating your profile, whatever you can do to get your resume out of the masses is beneficial. And having that connection, you know, is the most direct route to do that. So I think that networking, having the connections, you know, even knowing the recruiter that's responsible for the job, gives you a direct point of contact all of a sudden.

00:20:05:07 - 00:20:23:17
Speaker 3
So, you know, the old the old school way was you could actually pick up the phone and call and try to find out who the hiring manager was, possibly even show up at the companies in their lobby with your resume in hand. And sometimes you could get an interview out of it. And so I think that all of those things are very similar to knowing people in a different way.

00:20:23:17 - 00:20:37:16
Speaker 3
You know, knowing people when they're getting the referral definitely gets attention to your profile and then everything else has to sort itself out right? Sure. Is it a good match and stuff like that? But it definitely can help get the attention on to your credentials.

00:20:37:16 - 00:20:42:16
Speaker 2
Now, you talked about having more empathy in this process that you've been through it.

00:20:42:16 - 00:21:01:10
Speaker 2
And we talked about some things and something happened between you and I because we had talked about ghosting and how salespeople get ghosted. When you're when you're a salesperson, you get you're someone you think you're ready to close a deal. Everything was great. And then you don't hear anything. And then someone says, well, how often should I call this prospect?

00:21:01:11 - 00:21:17:11
Speaker 2
It's just like that with a job search. And when I texted you something to do with this podcast, I sent you a text and I forgot I sent it. But it had been a couple of days and it was shortly after we talked about ghosting. I sent you a text, Hey man, are you ghosting me? Because it was a you know, that was it.

00:21:17:11 - 00:21:41:20
Speaker 2
I'm like, this is easy mad at me. I've started project. Is he mad at me? Did I say something wrong? No, that was one thing I know. He looked. He saw my dad live and it was bad and he wants to hang around. People lift heavy. So I thought. That's interesting because you mentioned a couple of times there were a number of opportunities you had where you thought you were there and then you got ghosted and then you found out they weren't really good, but it was just this emotional rollercoaster.

00:21:41:20 - 00:21:49:22
Speaker 2
You said, What is that? How long should someone wait to hear back from someone? And what are ways to get in touch when you feel like you've been ghosted?

00:21:50:00 - 00:22:12:13
Speaker 3
Yeah, I mean, the magic question that, you know, between sales and job interviewing, I even have people, you know, knowing that I'm in the industry say how long, you know, it's too long. And the answer is you never know. It could be longer than you expected. You know, a lot of the processes go at the normal cadence. But I think, you know, taking the emotion out of it is the first key is is not trying to read into it.

00:22:12:13 - 00:22:31:09
Speaker 3
And that's very difficult to do when you're seeking a job and you need a job and, you know, you're trying to you're just anxious to get back to work. And everybody goes through this at various points. You know, I think that having, you know, one is setting an expectation with the interviewer Is the ideal situation similar to sales kind of checking for acceptance?

00:22:31:13 - 00:22:37:05
Speaker 3
When I hear back, what's the timeline look like? And we've all heard those types of, you know, those pieces of advice.

00:22:37:06 - 00:22:46:00
Speaker 2
And I just like closing. You want to make sure how motivated are you? You know, when can I when can I circle back? You know, the one buzzwords, words that no one likes to hear, you know, that established.

00:22:46:00 - 00:23:06:10
Speaker 3
You could even say, when would it make sense for me to follow up? All right. You can get that feedback. It's ideal. Otherwise, it's using your judgment. You know, I always believe in just a general rule of escalation of communication as you send out one, you know, softer touch, just checking, you know, checking in. It seemed that this was a timeframe that made sense for us.

00:23:06:12 - 00:23:25:02
Speaker 3
Then you kind of escalated again, you know, with a different type of message and changing it up, trying to add value to the content that you're, you know, that you're presenting when you're requesting the information. And then when you get to the stage where you might be getting ghosted, maybe throwing caution to the wind. And in all seriousness, you know, maybe just asking for closure of the opportunity, right?

00:23:25:03 - 00:23:30:07
Speaker 3
Maybe for advice. Hey, seeking advice. I'm not sure if this is still still open.

00:23:30:09 - 00:23:49:07
Speaker 2
Just but professional closure. Not like as some people you said you might get emotional like, listen, I spent this much time doing that. You interviews. You should never get to that point, no matter how angry you are, how much time you have invested in, and you feel like you've been robbed of an opportunity, You should still be professional and you should always like salespeople.

00:23:49:07 - 00:24:07:22
Speaker 2
They say, Always act like your pipeline's full. You know, like, don't, don't, don't pretend and mislead people. But like, I got a whole bunch of stuff going on if if I'm in or not, you know, you should still be authentic, but the whole time, you should still always be professional, even if asking for closure a couple of times.

00:24:08:00 - 00:24:29:22
Speaker 3
I think in all that messaging, it should come from a place of sincerity and saying, you know, this is something that's really been, you know, high on my interest level. And I'm just looking I that's definitely like closure, like you said, you know, professional closure to the opportunity. Is it still open? Should we still remain in contact? And a lot of times, if you ask for that, people will realize, hey, I need to let you know this is still extended.

00:24:30:00 - 00:24:53:06
Speaker 3
It's us working through the process, not you. Hang tight. We'll be in touch. So changing that messaging, you know, being sincere about your approach, staying consistent with it and using your judgment as to, you know, how frequently that shouldn't. You know, I think, you know, we all know how often it probably makes sense. But hearing it from, you know, from them ahead of time is helpful because then you then you can just follow that timeline.

00:24:53:08 - 00:25:12:22
Speaker 3
And, you know, a lot of times I'll throw that out and it's kind of a nice two way street for communication On the opposite side for me, on a professional standpoint, as I'm developing a relationship with a candidate through the interview process, I'll say, Hey, let's work together on this. If you don't hear from me by this date, let's either know, feel free that you could reach out.

00:25:12:22 - 00:25:35:23
Speaker 3
It's probably a good time for us to touch base or I'll be reaching out to you if I hear something sooner or as a failsafe at that point to give you an update. That way, we'll keep the process moving forward. So I'm going to go back to that empathy piece. That's a sign that this might be a good opportunity, that clients can be ear that the company is communicating with you, setting expectations, setting of follow up as we're evaluating employee culture.

00:25:36:01 - 00:25:57:20
Speaker 3
That might also be an indication that that's you know there's an expectation as transpire and see there. And so you know when I talk to candidates about that again on the professional side, a lot of times they're very appreciative. Hey, that's really helpful. And then when they reach out, you know, I, I give them the the respect of an update because they've done their side or if I know sooner than they reach out, then I reach out to them.

00:25:57:22 - 00:26:16:01
Speaker 3
And actually communication really keeps things moving forward. And so that's another yeah, as you're evaluating culture and opportunities, you know, we don't want this to always be one sided. And the sign that the employer doing it or, you know, supporting the follow up is a good circumstance too, for us to keep in mind.

00:26:16:02 - 00:26:43:21
Speaker 2
Yeah, when you which brings the empathy, the empathy thing comes to mind when you're sitting in, you mentioned you reach out and tell them, hey, you know, checks and balances if you don't hear from me. And that between the lines is a sign of decent culture, like a sign of a company you may want to work for. Which led me to another question that if I'm sitting in an interview with someone, what are fair questions for me to ask you about culture?

00:26:43:21 - 00:27:01:21
Speaker 2
Is it my my mind goes back to if I'm thinking in terms of sales and I'm talking with you and I want to turn into a job, I want to find out who worked here last and why did they leave? Because I want to find out what you need. And if I'm a good fit, because I'm not just hoping you hire me, I want to know if this is a place I want to work that should be equal.

00:27:01:21 - 00:27:28:07
Speaker 2
Although a salesperson wants to sell, wants to make money, the person seeking a job wants a job. There's some financial strain and they want that job, but at the same time, take away the sale and the benefit of the sale and take away the reward of getting the job. What do I need to know to make sure this is a good fit, even if I need money now and I want to get paid as a as a sales person and I want a job because I need to pay bills.

00:27:28:09 - 00:27:34:20
Speaker 2
What are some questions I should confidently ask to determine what the culture may be? If that's a place I want to be?

00:27:34:22 - 00:27:55:14
Speaker 3
I mean, I think you hit the nail on the head. You know, whatever is important to you is a question it's fair to ask, you know, and the employer, you know, should be reciprocal in giving me that response or that feedback. And, you know, I think, you know, that the ones that you referenced there, ironically, it's not a stage that is is a step that's done all that often.

00:27:55:18 - 00:28:21:13
Speaker 3
Yeah. Like you said, it, you know, maybe there's a sensitivity circumstance there, but I think it shows genuine interest. I think that it shows forethought from the candidate. Yeah. Thinking about that. And I think, you know, whatever is important to you that you've learned makes you succeed in your job. And I don't want to be too ambiguous with those questions, but I think it's really specific to the individual, you know, like you said, you know what?

00:28:21:15 - 00:28:45:05
Speaker 3
Maybe with people that transition from this role in the past, what were some of the things that they did? Well, what were some of the things? All right. What would be my greatest challenge in the short term in taking on this role? What would, you know, kind of flipping that a little bit to the positive is what would what is the greatest impact that I could have if I were to join the company or be selected as a candidate?

00:28:45:11 - 00:29:08:12
Speaker 3
A lot of times they'd be telling you what the company needs at that stage, right? And then you can evaluate, is that something that I can offer? Is that something that I'm really strong in? Is that something that I'm going to need a little bit of ramp up time with which if the previous person didn't have that and I need to ramp up on it, it might let you know that that could be a challenging state for the short term if that makes sense.

00:29:08:13 - 00:29:34:20
Speaker 3
Yeah, Yeah. But and it might just lead to a follow up question of, you know, what would the expectations be so that you could understand what you would need to do. And there's always, you know, you could begin to prep or plan mentally for that, that circumstance you might have to be ready to execute on. So there's a lot of things that would let you know what what you should you could expect in the role, I mean all the way up to and including asking for, you know, Saturday.

00:29:34:20 - 00:29:48:05
Speaker 3
Do you mind if I do a quick you know, sit with some of my peers for an hour or two? I mean, a lot of jobs will ask you to come in for a Saturday. And I think that is fair for the, you know, the employee, the candidate to ask for that. Yeah.

00:29:48:07 - 00:29:48:21
Speaker 2
Excellent.

00:29:48:23 - 00:29:51:01
Speaker 3
But there's a wide range of stuff.

00:29:51:01 - 00:30:14:07
Speaker 2
What's the best advice you could give someone? Of all the things we talked about and all the things you've seen or candidates fall short, that's pretty common. What would you what advice would you give someone? They were so close, but they're missing something. But something you see might be missing from the average person looking for a job What's the best advice you could give someone looking for a job on this market right now?

00:30:14:09 - 00:30:42:18
Speaker 3
I think, you know, always looking for differentiation and always looking to set yourself a focus on, you know, your attributes, your successes and what makes you unique and trying to bring that to the forefront as much as possible, whether optimizing your resume to highlight strengths, whether it's reaching out on a you know, like I mentioned, a messaging system with within whatever application you're working just to say, hey, this is why I feel that I'm a good fit.

00:30:42:20 - 00:31:08:19
Speaker 3
And then it points to the recruiter to, you know, look at your resume and identify where is that ad and, you know, one, one good friend that as I was going through the search, kept reminding me that video game where you're just one one exit away from hitting a little bit. Right. And realizing that it's, you know, just focusing on your strengths and your attributes, what you bring to an organization, being sincere about your interest in what they're offering you in a role.

00:31:08:21 - 00:31:23:09
Speaker 3
Once again, I know that's kind of high level, but I think, yeah, you know, those are things that ironically, the reason it's important is because you think that people are doing it, but they might not be. They're going through the motions. Well, I applied to a lot of jobs. I sent my resume out there, but people don't respond.

00:31:23:09 - 00:31:53:14
Speaker 3
And you really have to become emotionally invested. And then your emotional investment becomes apparent to, you know, the company, the recruiter, the hiring manager, and they realize there's something there, somebody that, you know, would be a good fit for them culturally, somebody that's shown enthusiasm and somebody that's just truly excited to be working. And, you know, I think as funny as that seems, I don't know that that's always apparent on the other side when, you know, the hiring manager or the company is looking at this profile.

00:31:53:14 - 00:32:00:01
Speaker 3
So seeing somebody that's just eager and trying to display that, I think can be, you know, can really Yeah.

00:32:00:01 - 00:32:20:01
Speaker 2
Someone who's motivated, I would think that becomes apparent to the person doing the hiring. If you can at least do if I can sense your motivation maybe on the emotional side of it, maybe instead of the word emotional, you should probably say demonstrate your motivation because we want to keep even keel and you can be emotional, but as long as your emotions don't make decisions for you passionate.

00:32:20:01 - 00:32:21:14
Speaker 2
Yeah, your passion could show.

00:32:21:16 - 00:32:52:08
Speaker 3
That would show up and in the lobby with their resume and their briefcase in hand and say, All right, it was a differentiator. And, you know, looking for those unique you know, I think so often we get I don't know what the word would be like, almost methodical about using a system and you feel like you're doing a lot of work, but in reality, you're just kind of like, I guess I said it earlier, going through the motions and trying to find, you know, unique ways to to set your profile apart, which we do in sales, right?

00:32:52:09 - 00:33:12:02
Speaker 3
Add value through, you know, the the benefits that we might be offering in the services that that our business has. Yeah, I think treating ourselves like a little mini business and displaying those the skills, like I said, that's kind of a higher level thing. But I think that what I find is not everybody does that or takes those extra steps, right?

00:33:12:04 - 00:33:29:02
Speaker 3
We just think what's in the system. They probably don't look at it a little, you know, unique. You know, a clever message might catch a recruiter's attention. They sound, you know, all of a sudden, who's this person? They look at the resume. As a matter of fact, it looks really good. You know, skills and experience.

00:33:29:04 - 00:33:46:13
Speaker 2
Yeah. A little research on who you're trying to attract or trying to get the attention of. There's usually a human somewhere in there finding someone, you know, who knows somebody who may know somebody that can give you an edge. But yeah, it's when you're a real estate agent and there's 50 real estate agents in the room, how do you sell a part?

00:33:46:13 - 00:33:52:17
Speaker 2
You don't just sit and wait for the phone to ring. You have to think and be on your toes and look for something to set you apart.

00:33:52:19 - 00:34:23:02
Speaker 3
Yeah. Going back to the sales, you know, example is if we just sat there and just kept picking up the phone and nobody's answer and making a lot of phone calls. Yeah. Can you get us the results? So what else can we be doing that brings, that is part of it, You know, going through those steps, I think, you know, taking those actions in the initiative to do that, but then maybe throwing something else into it to separate yourself is, you know, the greatest piece of advice, being vulnerable, thrown a message out there and having your network work.

00:34:23:04 - 00:34:40:02
Speaker 3
And then you have people, you know, helping you. You have that in in a company. As a matter of fact, somebody that I've worked with in the past. No. And respect is looking for an opportunity. And, you know, taking those little extra steps I think can go a long way. So, you know, I think that's up to the companies to show that passion is really important.

00:34:40:11 - 00:34:47:23
Speaker 2
Would you think it's good advice for someone who's looking for a job to explore improving their sales skills?

00:34:48:01 - 00:35:10:20
Speaker 3
Without a doubt. You know, there's a lot of tools out there for communication. And whether it's through the interview process, through the written application process, I think, you know, going back to the Marine Corps review, that was, you know, kind of the foundation of my, you know, people career of being in the people operations and human resources. It opened up a whole new life, just changing the thought process around.

00:35:10:22 - 00:35:32:15
Speaker 3
You know, you hear, you know, even in you and I talk about this all the time, just in everyday communication of, you know, I don't want to be sold. And it's like if it's if it's right, consultative process, it's just help. It's just empowering people to make a decision. It's not necessarily, you know, you know, forcing them to do something that they didn't want to do.

00:35:32:16 - 00:35:42:18
Speaker 2
Yeah, persuasion. I don't think persuasion is making someone do something they don't want. Persuasion is helping them understand what they really need and putting them where they want to be. I think like that's yeah.

00:35:42:20 - 00:36:03:16
Speaker 3
You know, there's crossover in what we do on a daily basis, whether it's presenting a topic in a boardroom of, you know, something that we're advocating for, you know, my realm, it's for employees or our culture, things that are going to help the company or the business move forward. You have to have a compelling case and, you know, features and benefits to what you're presenting in.

00:36:03:16 - 00:36:13:03
Speaker 3
So if you can, you know, develop those skills and use them in everyday life, you know, I think that's a really important attribute and very positive trait to have.

00:36:13:08 - 00:36:30:08
Speaker 2
Well, I appreciate you taking the time to come out here and sharing expertise. There's a lot of people looking for work and I think any little bit can help and I hope this helps somebody getting on the inside who's hearing from someone who's been on the inside and on the outside and back on the inside again. So thank you for taking the time to come on and share this with

00:36:30:08 - 00:36:31:04
Speaker 2
Thanks, Toby.

00:36:31:06 - 00:36:33:01
Speaker 3
You're welcome. Thanks for having me.